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RE: Immunizations

amanda222 — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:50:57 GMT

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to explain that much. It does seem to make sense.

RE: Immunizations

slakie — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:29:03 GMT

[quote][b]amanda222 (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]slakie (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]The vaccines are not given too early...and they are "timed" in accordance to when the immune system is developing, which is appropriate given how the immune system develops (which is a HUGE topic that is truly hard to simplify).[/quote]

Slakie - with respect to timing, I know you said this is hard to simplify, but do you have some resources you'd recommend that would further explain why the recommended schedule is what it is?[/quote]

I haven't gone in depth with my Immunology work for a while, but I'll look around. :)

But what I recall:

-the basic premise of immunity is the ability to distinguish self from non-self

-there are two general types of immunity: non-specific immunity and specific immunity.

-Non-specific immunity is immediate, produces a maximal response, but produces NO immunilogical memory. It includes defences such as our skin, mucous membranes, and certain cells in our body. This is not involved with vaccination - responses do not involve recognition of specific proteins/antigens.

-Specific immunity takes time to develop - there is a lag between exposure and maximal response. Responses involve recognition of specific proteins/antigens. It results in immunilogical memory (and thus involved with vaccination)

-There are different types of immune cells (and you all may have read about them) - T cells (T1 and T2 subtypes), B cells (makers of our very own antibodies), NK cells, macrophages/langerhans cells - they are produced in different parts of the body (e.g. T cells in the thymus, B cells in the spleen)

-Each type of immune cell made to best "recognize" different types of "bugs" - e.g. T1 cells best recognize virues, B cells, bacteria, NK cells recognize host cells that are infected with a specific "bug" etc.
-In addition to the above, some cells need help from other immune cells (e.g. B cells need "help" from either macrophages or T2 cells) so they can be activated to destroy the bug

-The main cells involved in specific immunity are the B-cells and T-cells (there are others, but I'll focus on these major players from here on for simplification)

-When the body develops immune cells, it makes a huge repetoire that includes immune cells that have the potential to recognize both host and foreign (i.e. "bugs", other human donor cells) protiens/antigens.

-To reach repetoire of the adult, immune cells go through "tests" where they are continually exposed to host antigens and foreign antigens (found in food, the environment, (vaccines) etc).

-Essentially cells need a "just right" exposure to become activated (and hence functioning in the body as an immune cell) - a "goldilocks approach". Too much exposure (i.e. from host/self antigen) the immune cell dies. Too little and the cell also essentially dies. "Just right" exposure activates the immune cell and allows it to exist in the body.

-Now T and B cells are generated at different times in the body after birth, so the vaccination schedule is generated so that the "bug" vaccination given scorresponds to the appropriate time when the immune cells are maturing in the body and to ensure that "just enough" exposure is given to the maturing cells so that the right cell(s) are appropriately activated and allowed to exist in the body.

-Once the immune cells are activated, they can be referred to as "memory cells". Some cells retain this memory life long...other cells need a "boost" to refresh that memory (eg. B cells that produce antibodies). Hence booster shots.

-I don't exactly remember off the top of my head when each cell type starts to develop in the body, but I do recall in my studies charts describing just that ( and how it corresponds to the vaccination schedules). I"ll have to dig those up...

Sorry if this post is too long and too confusing. I tried the best I could to explain given the time of day (it's almost midnight and I'm tired after a long day and trying to coax my way to energized son to sleep).

RE: Immunizations

chulie — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:29:06 GMT

[quote][b]ldeitz (6/23/2008)[/b][hr]Anthony is scheduled to go for his 2 month immunizations on Wednesday and I have to say I am fairly nervous. So many people that I talk to bring up autism and say that it is more common in boys than girls. I have done some research.....to be honest though I have tried not to as sometimes "googling" isnt the best idea! Today a friend of mine told me that her neighbor has 4 children. Her first 2 were immunized and ended up autistic and she did not do her other 2 and they are fine. Could be a coincidence...who knows....

For me, not immunizing Anthony is not an option. I would personally feel as though I were not protecting him if I chose not to, however I am still nervous about the appointment.

I would like to hear other peoples views on this.......[/quote]

the people who say that autism and vaccines are related actually dont say NOT to vaccinate..what they want is our vaccines cleaned up...they say there are too many chemicals in them that dont need to be there....jenny mcarthy is a huge advocate of this...even she believes in immunizing.....just doesnt like what IN the vaccines thats not necessary

RE: Immunizations

minzy — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:24:29 GMT

I spoke to my doctor about this and he said that although it not proven that vaccines can cause autism, it also isn't proven that they don't. He said the only problem would be with live vaccines which include the MMR shot, and the chicken pox shot. He said that to help prevent problems the MMR and chicken pox shot should not be given at the same time (many pediatriians do this) My doc said that injecting so many live viruses can cause the immume system to go "out of whack" but still vaccines are not proven or disproved to cause autism.

RE: Immunizations

amanda222 — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:04:27 GMT

[quote][b]slakie (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]The vaccines are not given too early...and they are "timed" in accordance to when the immune system is developing, which is appropriate given how the immune system develops (which is a HUGE topic that is truly hard to simplify).[/quote]

Slakie - with respect to timing, I know you said this is hard to simplify, but do you have some resources you'd recommend that would further explain why the recommended schedule is what it is?

RE: Immunizations

ChantalC — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:48:10 GMT

Just to throw in a wrinkle... I'm 31, and when I was a child I wasn't allowed to get my rubella vaccine because I was undersized and underweight. The doctor administering the vaccines was afraid of how someone my size would tolerate it. And that was 30 years ago or so, when the whole vaccine debate wasn't such a hot topic! So it's not like doctors are just blindly doing whatever they want.

A few years ago my doctor and I realized that I had missed the vaccine by doing a blood test for something else and I got the rubella shot then.

RE: Immunizations

Nik82 — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:36:34 GMT

[quote][b]BeeBear (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Nik82 (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]luckylamb (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]msamanda (6/25/2008)[/b][hr]We have my DS on a delayed/selective schedule and will not be doing the MMR.[/quote]

After researching this subject, we will also be doing an ALTERNATIVE vaccine schedule.

For those unsure of where they stand I would highly reccomend considering this as an option rather than feeling you must choose to have [b]all or nothing.[/b] This is NOT the case.

You CAN choose to give [b]some[/b] and not [b]all[/b] vaccines.
You CAN also choose to give some of the vaccines [b]individually[/b] rather than in the combos.
You CAN [b]delay[/b] the immunizations so that the baby's not receiving so many vaccines at such an early age.
You CAN adjust the timing between vaccines so that they have a longer time between each one.
You CAN ensure that your baby's vaccines do no contain[b] thimerosol [/b]or [b]aluminium[/b] BOTH of which are [b]toxic[/b][/quote]

Thanks for posting that Lucky. I think this is what DH and I will be doing as I do think some of the vaccines are warranted i.e.: Tetanus And I really don't like the thought of starting them at such a young age.[/quote]

As someone who's ballsy enough to question the experts ( ;) ) I am also leaning towards the delayed/selective scheduling. There's alot of info to digest[/quote]

Ha Ha Ha!

RE: Immunizations

BeeBear — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:34:56 GMT

[quote][b]Nik82 (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]luckylamb (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]msamanda (6/25/2008)[/b][hr]We have my DS on a delayed/selective schedule and will not be doing the MMR.[/quote]

After researching this subject, we will also be doing an ALTERNATIVE vaccine schedule.

For those unsure of where they stand I would highly reccomend considering this as an option rather than feeling you must choose to have [b]all or nothing.[/b] This is NOT the case.

You CAN choose to give [b]some[/b] and not [b]all[/b] vaccines.
You CAN also choose to give some of the vaccines [b]individually[/b] rather than in the combos.
You CAN [b]delay[/b] the immunizations so that the baby's not receiving so many vaccines at such an early age.
You CAN adjust the timing between vaccines so that they have a longer time between each one.
You CAN ensure that your baby's vaccines do no contain[b] thimerosol [/b]or [b]aluminium[/b] BOTH of which are [b]toxic[/b][/quote]

As someone who's ballsy enough to question the experts ( ;) ) I am also leaning towards the delayed/selective scheduling. There's alot of info to digest

RE: Immunizations

Nik82 — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:27:23 GMT

[quote][b]luckylamb (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]msamanda (6/25/2008)[/b][hr]We have my DS on a delayed/selective schedule and will not be doing the MMR.[/quote]

After researching this subject, we will also be doing an ALTERNATIVE vaccine schedule.

For those unsure of where they stand I would highly reccomend considering this as an option rather than feeling you must choose to have [b]all or nothing.[/b] This is NOT the case.

You CAN choose to give [b]some[/b] and not [b]all[/b] vaccines.
You CAN also choose to give some of the vaccines [b]individually[/b] rather than in the combos.
You CAN [b]delay[/b] the immunizations so that the baby's not receiving so many vaccines at such an early age.
You CAN adjust the timing between vaccines so that they have a longer time between each one.
You CAN ensure that your baby's vaccines do no contain[b] thimerosol [/b]or [b]aluminium[/b] BOTH of which are [b]toxic[/b][/quote]

RE: Immunizations

luckylamb — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:53:43 GMT

I cannot recommend this book enough!!!

The Truth About Vaccines by Richard Halvorsen MD

RE: Immunizations

luckylamb — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:48:29 GMT

[quote][b]msamanda (6/25/2008)[/b][hr]We have my DS on a delayed/selective schedule and will not be doing the MMR.[/quote]

After researching this subject, we will also be doing an ALTERNATIVE vaccine schedule.

For those unsure of where they stand I would highly reccomend considering this as an option rather than feeling you must choose to have [b]all or nothing.[/b] This is NOT the case.

You CAN choose to give [b]some[/b] and not [b]all[/b] vaccines.
You CAN also choose to give some of the vaccines [b]individually[/b] rather than in the combos.
You CAN [b]delay[/b] the immunizations so that the baby's not receiving so many vaccines at such an early age.
You CAN adjust the timing between vaccines so that they have a longer time between each one.
You CAN ensure that your baby's vaccines do no contain[b] thimerosol [/b]or [b]aluminium[/b] BOTH of which are [b]toxic[/b]

RE: Immunizations

muirhead — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:41:48 GMT

[quote][b]gr8blessings (6/25/2008)[/b][hr]Personally, I'd rather have the uninformed lead into vaccination since it is in the best interest of society and their children. We have paid big bucks to educate doctors and scientists and continue to pay big bucks to employ them in the government. Every single agency (Canadian Pediatrics, Public Health, Health Canada), strongly endorses vaccination. These are experts in their fields.

I think it takes a lot of guts for a single person to decide that he/she has enough experience and education after a bit of reading to go against these experts. I admire these people's ability to stick to their guns because they know, in their heart, that it is the right thing to do for their child despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think a big part of parenting is to do what we believe is right in our hearts. To stand by what is true to us, and any parent that can teach that to their children is not irresponsible to their child or to society. They are more likely to be the leaders rather than the followers.

I have a strong interest in vaccination, and a PhD specializing in infectious disease, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert. I'm still looking for a single valid reason to not vaccinate that doesn't depend on herd immunity. I hope it exists because I'd rather not inject a vaccine into my child either. As it stands now, though, I rather my child have the vaccine then the disease.

gr8blessings
And moderator if anyone goes whining to you, tell them to shut up, because this has been the best discussion I have had on this topic in a long time.
[/quote]

AGreed 100%%%%%%%%% Thank you again gr8blessings for your eductional information!

RE: Immunizations

jbuckle — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:09:40 GMT

Well said Gr8, I appreciate all of your info on this topic (as I have in the past)!

RE: Immunizations

gr8blessings — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:04:36 GMT

Personally, I'd rather have the uninformed lead into vaccination since it is in the best interest of society and their children. We have paid big bucks to educate doctors and scientists and continue to pay big bucks to employ them in the government. Every single agency (Canadian Pediatrics, Public Health, Health Canada), strongly endorses vaccination. These are experts in their fields.

I think it takes a lot of guts for a single person to decide that he/she has enough experience and education after a bit of reading to go against these experts. I admire these people's ability to stick to their guns because they know, in their heart, that it is the right thing to do for their child despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think a big part of parenting is to do what we believe is right in our hearts. To stand by what is true to us, and any parent that can teach that to their children is not irresponsible to their child or to society. They are more likely to be the leaders rather than the followers.

I have a strong interest in vaccination, and a PhD specializing in infectious disease, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert. I'm still looking for a single valid reason to not vaccinate that doesn't depend on herd immunity. I hope it exists because I'd rather not inject a vaccine into my child either. As it stands now, though, I rather my child have the vaccine then the disease.

gr8blessings
And moderator if anyone goes whining to you, tell them to shut up, because this has been the best discussion I have had on this topic in a long time.

RE: Immunizations

Nik82 — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:59:42 GMT

[quote][b]jbuckle (6/25/2008)[/b][hr]To clarify - I said I think it's irresponsible NOT to vaccinate (For both society and your child). I didn't say they were irresponsible parents if you didn't....

Nik, I'm sorry that you took offense to my post but I was just posting my opinion. I wasn't trying to offend. I'm not trying to be mean. But when I was reading these posts (again because this thread topic comes up all the time) I was frustrated. Really, it's comes down to your rights but as a society and in the best interest of children I think it's important. Again I said it's just my opinion.

Beebear, I know my rights. I choose to have my son vaccinated. I'm a teacher as well so I know the education system.[/quote]

I know you weren't. Thank you. Like it's been said before, this is a very touchy subject, and everybody has their oppinion because that's what they think is best for their child. Which is also why it gets so heated. We're obviously all caring loving parents (or soon to be parents) who care very much about the wellfare of our children.

As to the herd immunity comments, I agree. It is due in part to the high rate of immunization that we are free, or at a low risk for many of the diseases in question. So my decisions today are going to be based on the climate at this time. If in the future things change, then I can guarantee that my decisions would change. If you think the risk is too high to your child, then by all means, don't get them vaccinated. It is your choice!

RE: Immunizations

jbuckle — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:47:08 GMT

[quote][b]balloongrl (6/25/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]gr8blessings (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]Yes, the herd immunity makes sense...it is the only valid argument against not immunizing since the herd immunity would protect the unvaccinated...however, if everyone thought that way, then it is no longer true. Dr. Tenpenny heavily relies on this argument to support not vaccinating and it drives me nuts. I think it is totally unfair that parents that feel a vaccine is too much of a risk for their child rely on me taking that risk for my child.

[/quote]

this is what makes me so friggin angry!! the only reason they have the choice to make the decision of whether to vaccinate and/or immunize is for no other reason than that so many people have vaccinated and it is now "safe" enough for them not to. The ONLY reason the risks of immunizing are worse than not is BECAUSE of all the people around that HAVE been immunized. If we all stop immunizing these diseases WILL come back to canada - it'll take one person, one baby and one trip to mexico and all of a sudden we have a huge outbreak on our hands. and with more and more people jumping the bandwagon to not immunize (there was a news story on the growing rates) I'll admit it I'm terrified of what will happen in 10 or 20 years from now - all our progress to make our country safe and disease free will all be for nothing as people become more and more complacent...

and I realize it is not mandatory - never once have I said it is[/quote]

I agree 100%%%%%%%%%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Immunizations

jbuckle — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:45:58 GMT

To clarify - I said I think it's irresponsible NOT to vaccinate (For both society and your child). I didn't say they were irresponsible parents if you didn't....

Beebear, I know my rights. I choose to have my son vaccinated. I'm a teacher as well so I know the education system.

RE: Immunizations

BeeBear — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:39:05 GMT

**Sidenote: someone is gonna run to a Mod now and have this thread shutdown........I can guarantee it. :Whistling: I find this to be a very enlightening, two sided conversation....and those are always shut down.

RE: Immunizations

BeeBear — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:37:36 GMT

and I realize it is not mandatory - never once have I said it is[/quote]

No, but some have....those that state they HAD to vacinnate their kids so they could attend school. They're clearly don't know their rights nor have they researched it on their own (or they would have known their right to choose). That's what ticks me off, just doing something because someone told you that you had to or else.......then calling parents who don't vaccinate "irresponsible". I think it's more irresponsible not to know the facts and your rights......who's more blind to the situation?! I had alot more respect for those that had their facts straight vs running around stating falses.

RE: Immunizations

fascha — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:27:47 GMT

Balloongirl you should research the statements you made about why some diseases are virtually non-existant and you will be surprised to find that many of them were steadily declining prior to the introduction of the sacred cow; vaccination.

RE: Immunizations

balloongrl — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:15:35 GMT

[quote][b]gr8blessings (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]Yes, the herd immunity makes sense...it is the only valid argument against not immunizing since the herd immunity would protect the unvaccinated...however, if everyone thought that way, then it is no longer true. Dr. Tenpenny heavily relies on this argument to support not vaccinating and it drives me nuts. I think it is totally unfair that parents that feel a vaccine is too much of a risk for their child rely on me taking that risk for my child.

[/quote]

and I realize it is not mandatory - never once have I said it is

RE: Immunizations

BeeBear — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:08:01 GMT

I think there also appears to be a lack of knowledge about your rights....when it comes to those that swear up and down you MUST vaccinate. Funny how some are being labeled as "irresponsible" for their choice as a parent yet some around here are "clueless" about their rights and the FACT that it is NOT mandatory.

At least there's some people making an informed decision vs taking a teachers word for it and not standing up for their beliefs in the first place. I'd sooner have a parent tell me they made an INFORMED decision not to vacinnate vs. a parent who just did it because someone told them to.

Sorry it sounds harsh, but it's apparant that some ladies can't grasp that it is LEGALLY NOT MANDATORY. Perhaps YOU need to investigate your rights before calling others irresponsible. I do realize that the same PP who swears up and down it's mandatory isn't the same PP who called the parents who choose not to vaccinate IRRESPONSIBLE parents.....but c'mon, get you facts straight, it's NOT mandatory.

RE: Immunizations

Nik82 — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:42:50 GMT

Here's what the Immunization of School Pupils act says:

Purpose of Act

2. The purpose of this Act is to increase the protection of the health of children against the diseases that are designated diseases under this Act. R.S.O. 1990, c. I.1, s. 2.

Duty of parent

3. (1) The parent of a pupil shall cause the pupil to complete the prescribed program of immunization in relation to each of the designated diseases. R.S.O. 1990, c. I.1, s. 3 (1).

Exception

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to the parent of a pupil in respect of the prescribed program of immunization in relation to a designated disease specified by a physician or a registered nurse in the extended class in a statement of medical exemption filed with the proper medical officer of health and, where the physician or registered nurse in the extended class has specified an effective time period, only during the effective time period. 2007, c. 10, Sched. E, s. 2.

Idem

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a parent who has filed a statement of conscience or religious belief with the proper medical officer of health. R.S.O. 1990, c. I.1, s. 3 (3).

[url]http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/97vol23/23s4/23s4b_e.html[/url] and here's the government website.

[url]http://vran.org/docs/form-2.pdf[/url] and here's the form.

Hope that helps clear things up.

RE: Immunizations

gr8blessings — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:32:18 GMT

Here is the url for how to fill out an exemption form for the Hamilton school board.

[url]http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/FD3A7FD3-712E-4ACC-AB5A-B85D2FC316CE/42069/ConscienceExemptionLetter.pdf[/url]
gr8blessings

RE: Immunizations

satin — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:18:50 GMT

[quote][b]MrsZator (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]BeeBear (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]MrsZator (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]I am all for... Tommy is up to date with them all.

FYI - You can't inrole your kids in school without the basic ones.[/quote]

I don't think that's true......this has been discussed many times before and if I recall correctly, you DO have a choice. Anyone with the facts? I just don't think that statement is accurate for some reason. :unsure:[/quote]

I know for a fact.

My sister has 4 kids ages 4,3,2, and 8 monts.

None were up to date with their shots.

1 of the 3 is in daycare and the 1 is in daycare and kindergarden (both this yr) and were not alloud in either without the mandatory shots, the basic 2,4,6,12,15 month shots.[/quote]

my sister has 3 children in school-none were up to date and COULD NOT go back untill they had the shots. this is a public school in Hamilton. i have 4 kids in school and i had to sumbit proof of up to date shots or i could not enroll them.

just FYI-that was my experience and my kids all have theirs up to date and Trinity gets her first ones on the 7th of july.

RE: Immunizations

fascha — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:09:22 GMT

[quote][b]igottajlo (6/25/2008)[/b][hr]I don't think that anyone is making that decision to harm their child. They are making the decision based on what they feel is best for their child and we should all be proud and happy with that decision and not made to feel we're bad parents no matter the decision.[/quote]

Amen!

RE: Immunizations

igottajlo — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:59:47 GMT

DH and I have decided to vaccinate our LO.

I think vaccinating your children is a very personal choice just like doing the IPS testing. It's not fair to judge the decision others make. A co-worker of mine has not vaccinated her children ... sure it's not the decision we've made but it doesn't make her decision wrong. Nor does it make anyone else's decision wrong.

I don't think that anyone is making that decision to harm their child. They are making the decision based on what they feel is best for their child and we should all be proud and happy with that decision and not made to feel we're bad parents no matter the decision.

RE: Immunizations

Nik82 — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:44:51 GMT

In regards to the comment:

Personally, I think it's irresponsible not to vaccinate. JMO...

I know you don't mean to be mean (because I've seen your other threads and I know you're nice people), but IMO calling somebody's decision irresponsible is not appropriate. Especially when it's directed at somebody who has clearly done research and is well educated. It's a difference of oppinion/beliefs.

I only say this because I was offended by that remark.

RE: Immunizations

msamanda — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:04:28 GMT

We have my DS on a delayed/selective schedule and will not be doing the MMR.

RE: Immunizations

gr8blessings — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:33:18 GMT

Yes, the herd immunity makes sense...it is the only valid argument against not immunizing since the herd immunity would protect the unvaccinated...however, if everyone thought that way, then it is no longer true. Dr. Tenpenny heavily relies on this argument to support not vaccinating and it drives me nuts. I think it is totally unfair that parents that feel a vaccine is too much of a risk for their child rely on me taking that risk for my child.

Although Slakie has given an excellent explanation of herd immunity, her explanation has opened up the argument "well if vaccines are really that wonderful, why would we have to force people to take them?". I think that with informed consent, including the benefits of herd immunity, the prognosis of the diseases, and low risk of the vaccine would convince most parents to go with the vaccine. Certainly did when vaccines were first introduced, especially since the outcome of the diseases were pretty fresh in people's mind. Like a PP said, we just don't see people dying from or suffering severe complications from these diseases anymore, so it isn't on the radar.

gr8blessings

RE: Immunizations

slakie — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:41:58 GMT

[quote][b]BeeBear (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]MrsZator (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]BeeBear (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]MrsZator (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]I am all for... Tommy is up to date with them all.

FYI - You can't inrole your kids in school without the basic ones.[/quote]

I know for a fact.

My sister has 4 kids ages 4,3,2, and 8 monts.

None were up to date with their shots.

1 of the 3 is in daycare and the 1 is in daycare and kindergarden (both this yr) and were not alloud in either without the mandatory shots, the basic 2,4,6,12,15 month shots.[/quote]

Daycare isn't part of the public educational system, therefore, they may make the choice not to admit children into their daycare, but, you cannot force a parent to vaccinate for educational entrance. Perhaps if she looked further into it she would be aware of her constitutional rights not to vaccinate. Plus, daycare and the school system are two totally different areas. I just don't think that's a plausible arguement.

ETA: the whole point I'm trying to make is that if I choose not to vaccinate my child, it doesn't mean that they don't have the right to be educated. Being that there's forms available to be filled out by those that opt not to vaccinate proves right there that it's not mandatory. I can also see how it would violate a constitutional right if I were told that I MUST vaccinate. This is apparantely a free country and with that comes my right as a parent to choose and saying that my children will not be admitted into the educational system without it is a violation of my right to choose. [/quote]

BeeBear and gr8blessings make the point that it is a constitional right whether or not to vaccinate a child.
While that may be the case, you may also want to think of the "bigger picture"...

It is true that vaccinations are not mandatory. However, I believe the biggest reason for the "push" towards vaccination may be based on the theory of "herd immunity" (also referred to as "community immunity"). Basically, herd immunity proposes that when a certain percentage of individuals in a group are immunized, then this provides immunization toward the (very small) percentage of indivuals who are not immunized AND towards those individuals for whom the vaccination did not work. Thus over time, as more people are immunized, more individuals can be protected (and some disease may be "erradicated" like polio).

Now "herd immunity" rests not on the belief that vaccinations work, but on their failure rate - if only a handful of people are vaccinated, then there will be a larger portion of people as a whole who are more susceptible to a disease (those unvaccinated vs. those for whom the vaccination did not work). Vaccinating as many people as possible will give a greater chance for immunity for group as a whole.

Now if the classroom/school can be thought of as a "herd", then vaccinating as many children as possible would be key to imparting immunity. Of course, the thought is that if people are given a choice, more than not would immunize their child, thus weakening overall "herd immunity". Hence its "requirement".

I hope this makes some sense.

RE: Immunizations

MrsZator — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:41:17 GMT

[quote][b]jbuckle (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]fascha (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]Personally though if there were an outbreak of something at a school I would keep my son or daughter home regardless since vaccines are not synonymous with immunization. It bothers me that they are used interchangeably as the efficacy of each vaccine is debatable period.[/quote]

This isn't really going to work as the incubation periods can be prior to symptoms showing. Your child could still contract the disease even if you decide to keep them home.

Personally, I think it's irresponsible not to vaccinate. JMO... and I still thought long and hard about it too...[/quote]

I agree.

RE: Immunizations

MrsZator — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:40:32 GMT

[quote][b]gr8blessings (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]Could it be that the school board didn't tell her that she needed a letter to be exempt from the immunizations? There is a lot of pressure to vaccinate from public health officials, and some will use the school argument to "force" the parents to vaccinate. I think that approach is disgusting because we all have the right to choose. Also, I've heard some parents that didn't want to vaccinate but did so anyway because the hassle of getting the letter was not worth the fight. They then say that the school board "forced" them to vaccinate so the children could be admitted.

gr8blessings[/quote]

That may have been the case but they told her get their shots or no school.

RE: Immunizations

MrsZator — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:39:26 GMT

FYI - You can't inrole your kids in school without the basic ones.[/quote]

I know for a fact.

My sister has 4 kids ages 4,3,2, and 8 monts.

None were up to date with their shots.

1 of the 3 is in daycare and the 1 is in daycare and kindergarden (both this yr) and were not alloud in either without the mandatory shots, the basic 2,4,6,12,15 month shots.[/quote]

I did say kindergarden too.

RE: Immunizations

gr8blessings — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:22:06 GMT

Could it be that the school board didn't tell her that she needed a letter to be exempt from the immunizations? There is a lot of pressure to vaccinate from public health officials, and some will use the school argument to "force" the parents to vaccinate. I think that approach is disgusting because we all have the right to choose. Also, I've heard some parents that didn't want to vaccinate but did so anyway because the hassle of getting the letter was not worth the fight. They then say that the school board "forced" them to vaccinate so the children could be admitted.

gr8blessings

RE: Immunizations

BeeBear — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:57:26 GMT

[quote][b]MrsZator (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]BeeBear (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]MrsZator (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]I am all for... Tommy is up to date with them all.

FYI - You can't inrole your kids in school without the basic ones.[/quote]

I know for a fact.

My sister has 4 kids ages 4,3,2, and 8 monts.

None were up to date with their shots.

1 of the 3 is in daycare and the 1 is in daycare and kindergarden (both this yr) and were not alloud in either without the mandatory shots, the basic 2,4,6,12,15 month shots.[/quote]

RE: Immunizations

MrsZator — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:52:51 GMT

[quote][b]BeeBear (6/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]MrsZator (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]I am all for... Tommy is up to date with them all.

FYI - You can't inrole your kids in school without the basic ones.[/quote]

I know for a fact.

My sister has 4 kids ages 4,3,2, and 8 monts.

None were up to date with their shots.

1 of the 3 is in daycare and the 1 is in daycare and kindergarden (both this yr) and were not alloud in either without the mandatory shots, the basic 2,4,6,12,15 month shots.

RE: Immunizations

eeklrb — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:59:20 GMT

[quote][b]loved (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]I have had this internal debate as well. Our son is four months old and up to date on all his vaccines. What we chose to do was split up the vaccines so he did not get eveything at one visit instead he got two seperate shots ( not nice for him but I felt a bit better) I think every parent is nervous about vaccines ( worrying seems to be part of being a parent! lol) In my opinion it is not an option to not vaccinate our child. The risks seem to great for us. Especially with the rise of parents who don't vaccinate I would not be surprised to see an increase in the diseases we vaccinate against. I read Dr.Sears book on vaccines and I found it helpful. As he put it if you choose not to vaccinate dont tell your neighbours about your decision because if too many of us make that decision we could have a serious problem on our hands. It is not too many years ago that many children died from diseases that luckily we dont see to much of any more. I am hoping that by the time our son is older there will be some more research done on the MMR vaccine link to autism because I am more nervous about that vaccine.

Its a tough decision to make and a very personal one. Not everyone will agree with you what ever your choice but as a parent you have to make the decision you feel most comfortable with.[/quote]

isn't that the truth....

RE: Immunizations

loved — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:54:21 GMT

I have had this internal debate as well. Our son is four months old and up to date on all his vaccines. What we chose to do was split up the vaccines so he did not get eveything at one visit instead he got two seperate shots ( not nice for him but I felt a bit better) I think every parent is nervous about vaccines ( worrying seems to be part of being a parent! lol) In my opinion it is not an option to not vaccinate our child. The risks seem to great for us. Especially with the rise of parents who don't vaccinate I would not be surprised to see an increase in the diseases we vaccinate against. I read Dr.Sears book on vaccines and I found it helpful. As he put it if you choose not to vaccinate dont tell your neighbours about your decision because if too many of us make that decision we could have a serious problem on our hands. It is not too many years ago that many children died from diseases that luckily we dont see to much of any more. I am hoping that by the time our son is older there will be some more research done on the MMR vaccine link to autism because I am more nervous about that vaccine.

Its a tough decision to make and a very personal one. Not everyone will agree with you whay ever your choice but as a parent you have to make the decision you feel most comfortable with.

RE: Immunizations

jbuckle — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:09:53 GMT

[quote][b]fascha (6/24/2008)[/b][hr]Personally though if there were an outbreak of something at a school I would keep my son or daughter home regardless since vaccines are not synonymous with immunization. It bothers me that they are used interchangeably as the efficacy of each vaccine is debatable period.[/quote]

This isn't really going to work as the incubation periods can be prior to symptoms showing. Your child could still contract the disease even if you decide to keep them home.

Personally, I think it's irresponsible not to vaccinate. JMO... and I still thought long and hard about it too...